1.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Israel’s Prime Minister
causes outrage by blaming a Palestinian leader for inspiring the Holocaust. Is
Benjamin Netanyahu trying to rewrite History, and why, and how dangerous is the
flammatory Rhetoric on both sides? This is Inside Story. Hello and welcome to
the programme. I’m Dareen
A-bug-haid-a. It’s not every day that Israeli Prime Minister being
described as a denier of the Holocaust. That’s exactly the allegation levelled
at Benjamin Netanyahu after he claimed that it was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem,
a Palestinian religious leader who gave Hitler the Idea of Exterminating the
Jews during World War Two. Take a listen.
2.
Netanyahu: ... Jewish Community, 1920, 1921, 1929 were
instigated by a call of the Mufti, Amin al-Husseini, who was later sought for War-crimes in the Nuremberg Trial, because he had a central
role in fomenting the Final Solution. Flew to Berlin. Hitler didn’t want
to exterminate the Jews at the time. He wanted to expel the Jews. Amin al-Husseini
went, If you expel them, they’ll all come here. So what should I do with them,
he asked? He said, Burn them.
3.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: The comments were denounced
by Israeli historians as well as the opposition politicians, while Chancellor
Angela Merkel of Germany made clear that the Holocaust was very much Germany’s
Responsibility. The Controversy comes at a time of heightened tension in Israel
and Occupied Palestinian Territories. Netanyahu repeatedly blamed the
Palestinian leaders for inciting Violence and lying about Israel’s Actions in
al-Aqsa Compound in Jerusalem. Palestinians blame Israel for presiding over the
crumbling status quo in Jerusalem which allows provocative acts by the
right-wing Israelis in sacred site. To discuss it today, let’s bring our
guests. From New York, we have Norman Finkelstein []. In Philadelphia, Gregg
Roman is joining us from there. He is the director of the Middle East Forum []. In Ammad, Mouin
Rabbani []. It’s good to have you with us in Al Jazeera. Norman, so as you
know, Benjamin Netanyahu’s speech criticised by so many People. One professor
said the speech was “the height of distortion of History.” What do you think?
4.
Finkelstein: Well, the
good thing about the speech is it’s now shown the World for anyone who still
entertain doubts that the Prime Minsiter of the State of Israel is the certifiable
maniac. There is no evidence that the Mufi of the Jerusalem inspired the
Nazi Holocaust. That’s not even a topic of
Discussion or Controversy. It has as much connexion with the Real World
as the Flat-Earth Soceity. Efforts now even to cast this as a Controversy are
utterly preposterous. If you look at the authoritative History of the Nazi
Extermination, namely, Raul Hilberg’s The
Destruction of the European Jews. Its last version is three volumes. In
these three hefty volumes, describing in excruciating detail the Extermination
process, the Mufti of Jerusalem gets one sentence. One
sentence in the three volumes. The Mufti at one point
told the German Foreign Ministry that it shouldn’t let several thousand Hungarian children go to Palestine. The Mufti was aware that the children were being exterminated, and
he said something which was Evil, no doubt about it. But then to
turn that into the Mufti being the mastermind of the Nazi Holocaust, that’s
beyond lunacy.
5.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: I’d like to take this
Discussion as to why Netanyahu would be saying this comment at this time, but
before we get into that and before I bring in my other guests, let me just ask
you [whether] you can clarify one point for us, because historians do disagree
on the significance of Mufti’s relationship with Hitler, is that correct to
say? And to what degree is there a Disagreement?
6.
Finkelstein: The only place where the Mufti
played any role whatsoever – remember before I
continue: The Mufti is an Arab, Hitler is an Aryan Supremacist as were all
the Nazi Leaders – the very Idea that they would take an advice from an Arab,
a Semite, that’s just so ridiculous. But leaving that
aside for a moment, the only place where the Mufti “played” a role was he was
trying to recruit Bosnian Muslims for the Nazi SS. That’s correct. He was
trying to recruit for the Nazi Army. But apart from that, I had as much
to do with the Nazi Holocaust as the Mufti of Jerusalem.
7.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Gregg, do you think
Netanyahu expected such a backlash?
8.
Roman: No, but I also think there were several
points in Netanyahu’s speech that were not factually accurate, like Mr.
Finkelstein said. For instance, he said Mufti died in Cairo in 1974 of cancer.
He died in Beirut. But I think that the real Element of what we have to look at
here when regarding Mufti’s involvement, not just for the Holocaust, but about
Palestinian Arab Incitement against Jews is the History of Mufti’s meetings
with Hitler. In February of 1941, an invitation was extended from Hitler to the
Mufti in Jerusalem to Berlin. The meeting then took place in Berlin in 1941.
This is all available in German Foreign Record. In June of that year, there was
a starting of the plan called Operation Barbarossa or the Nazi Invasion of
Russia-Occupied Poland and Germany and Lithuania. We know that the Holocaust
started its inception, became in 1929, 1939, and 1940 and 1941, and culminated
in the first mass Killing in ** in September of 1941. The allegation that the Mufti was
the inspiration for the Holocaust is factually incorrect. However. To deviate
from the claims that the Mufti did not have any involvement with the Holocaust
is also factually incorrect. We saw at this at the meeting of 28
November 1941. When the Mufti and Hitler met in Berlin, there were four Agreements
that came to be. And of those Agreements, one would be: The use of Mufti’s
Propaganda in trying to rally Arabs in coming forth a Middle Eastern Holocaust
that was coming to be planned, and this was also a part of the historical
record.
9.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: All right, but hang on a
second. Gregg, why would the Prime Minister of the Country.
10.
Roman: Sure.
11.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Why would the Prime
Minister of Israel be standing before the World and make factually incorrect
statements?
12.
Roman: Sometimes politicians make factually
incorrect statements. However. I don’t think he was trying to point to the
historical record as his general point. [Ronald Reagan & George Herbert
Walker Bush] I think he was trying to point
was the linkeage between the Mufti, his Ideological heir, Yasser Arafat, and
subsequently, the Palestinian Incitements that’s going on today as being of the
same lineage as the Mufti’s Hatred towards Jews. That’s the wider issue of what
trying to bring up. The context in which he did it may have been incorrect.
However. I have to say that the Element and the Patho of what he was trying to
talk about was correct.
13.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Mouin, your take on why
Netanyahu would be making these comments now?
14.
Rabbani: For exactly the reason Gregg Norman
just said. As he rather outrageously and obscenely claims, today’s Palestinian
leaders are essentially the heirs of Nazi Ideology, and the reason that they’re
in Conflict with Israel has, as he would argue, absolutely nothing to do with
Israeli Colonisation, has nothing to do with Israeli Expulsion of the
Palestinian and the Nakba, and has absolutely nothing to do with half a century
of Occupation and Colonisation. There’s only one reason and one reason alone,
that the Palestinians are in Conflict with Israel, according to this idiotic narrative, and that is simply
they have pathological and abiding Hatred of Jews, whether they are in Kiryat Arba or
Copenhagen. That’s irrelevant. And that’s the point that Netanyahu was trying
to make, and that’s the point that Gregg Norman is seeking to make now. I mean, trying to trivialise this by saying
that politicians make factually inaccurate mistakes. [Noah Baumbach & his
fucking cunt parents of his.] Well, suppose that, for example, Mahmoud Abbas
were to get up today, and say, Actually, the Holocaust was not Hitler’s Idea,
it was proposed to him by David Ben-Gurion and Chaim Weizmann in order to
justify the Creation of the State of Israel. Imagine the Outrage that we wouldn’t have
someone like John Kerry saying, Both sides need to tone down the Rhetoric. Imagine the
Outrage if a Palestinian leader had said something similar. So, to seek to
trivialise this is, I think, quite obscene. I also do think, however, it raises
another opportunity for another important Discussion we need to have, and that
is the role of the Zionist Movement in the 30s and the 40s. Netanyahu is an heir of that faction of pre-State Zionist
Movement, conventionally known as Revisionism, which was in fact inspired by
Fascism, albeit totalitarian variant led by Mussollini. And during World
War Two, in 1941, one faction of that Movement that was eventually led by Izhak
Shamir made approach to the Nazi Germany, during the Holocaust, I should add,
proposing an alliance with Berlin against the British, who then ruled
Palestine. So there’s a long History here. Netanyahu is today the heir and the
leader of that wing of the Zionist Movement.
15.
Roman: That claim is factually incorrect.
16.
Rabbani: If you’ll let me finish, because your
Organisation, Gregg Norman, the Middle East Forum, is also deeply implicated in
all of this. Your leader, for example, Daniel Pipes, has described the Dutch far-right neo-Fascist leader, **, as the most
important European alive. Your Organisation has been funneling Money to him. So
there’s a long thread here, and not at all surprising that someone like Gregg
Norman has prepared to come on this show and try to trivialise the statement
and seek to justify it by making exactly the same -
17.
Roman: I think I deserve an opportunity to
respond to these outrageous accusations.
18.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Let’s just keep the topic.
I will give you the opportunity. Let’s keep the topic to Netanyahu’s statement
and the Language of Incitement. Gregg, I allow you to respond to Mouin’s
comments, and just tell us [whether] you agree that Netanyahu’s trying to smear
Palestinian Nationalism in context of what is happening right now on the
ground. And that’s according to Mouin has been just telling us.
19.
Roman: I disagree with that, but first and
foremost, I think any ad hominem attacks against my Organisation or any
Individuals involved with it would be completely irresponsible.
20.
Rabbani: It’s not ad
hominem, it’s factual. Your Organisation has been publicly funneling Money to
him.
21.
Roman: Yes, we did support the Right of Free
Speech. We did support the Free Speech in Europe. Like right now, we’re
supporting the Right to Have a Discussion about the elements in Palestinian
Extremism. This doesn’t have anything to do with this historical narrative that
you’re trying to bring up and take away from the ad hominem attacks that are
going on in Israel right now. So let me address the Incitement narrative that I
was asked by the interviewer.
22.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Yes, please.
23.
Roman: The roots of Palestinian Incitements come
from [Amin] al-Husseini, the former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. In 1999, released
autobiography, written only in Arabic and not having been translated into
English until 2014 when the book came out called The Nazis, the Islamists, and the Making of
the Modern Middle East. We see that the Grand Mufti himself describes
the protocols of his meeting with Hitler taking place, and trying and claim to
take the Responsibility for an Incitement that took place in North Africa and
in the Middle East, and even taking Responsibility for the **, in 1941 in
Pogram against Jews in Baghdad. There is an inescapable and inextracable
connexion between Islamists in 40s and the Nazi Movement. And to make a claim
that there was an unholy alliance between Zionism and Nazism is absurd. The
conversation that took place between Shamir and elements. That alliance you were talking about was not an alliance
against the British. It was an effort to extract Jews from Europe so that they
wouldn’t die in the gas chambers. If you look at actual Zionist archives.
24.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Just one second. Norman, I
see you shaking your head. What I want to focus at this point is the Language
of Incitement that People are saying is being used by both sides, Norman. So
Israeli politicians are accusing the Palestinians of what they say are
Nazi-like Incitements. Abbas is being personally accused by Netanyahu. And Palestinian
Authority is warning the Israeli’s Incitement against Mahmoud Abbas is lead to
a big explosion. What does this all mean to the situation on the ground? How
does it translate into what’s happening right now?
25.
Finkelstein: Well, first of all, I do think it’s
important to get facts correct. Mr. Norman is plainly incorrect when he says
that the Stern Gang didn’t
propose political, Ideological
alliance with Hitler. The
Stern Gang, as he knows - eventually became Izhak Shamir the Prime
Minister of Israel – he was one of the [homo sapiens] who proposed the
alliance. It did not speak to prevent the Extermination of Jews. It spoke to a political,
Ideological alliance. We have the document. Number two, Gregg Norman is correct. Mufti
died peacefully in Lebanon. He lived there in 1970s, which poses an interesting question, and I would certainly like to hear Gregg Norman answer.
26.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Gregg Roman, if I can
correct you.
27.
Finkelstein: Roman. If
the Mufti of Jerusalem was the mastermind of the Nazi Holocaust, then why
didn’t the Israeli do to the Mufti what they did to Eichmann? If they went all
the way to the Argentina to kidnap Eichmann in order to bring him to Justice,
why didn’t they send and dispatch the same team to kidnap the Mufti, the
mastermind of the Final Solution and bring him to Justice?
28.
Roman: I reiterate. The Mufti was not the
mastermind of the Final Solution.
29.
Finkelstein: Why did they let him live
peacefully in retirement there?
30.
Roman: You’re putting words into my mouth, sir.
I said the Mufti, the Mufti was not the architect nor the mastermind of the
Holocaust. That’s what I’m saying. And in addition to that.
31.
Finkelstein: Mr. Roman.
32.
Roman: You may quote whomever you want, but you
will not quote me. I would say this to you: The Mufti.
33.
Finkelstein: I was quoting. I was quoting. The
Mufti was not sought out by the Nuremberg Tribunal.
34.
Roman: He was sought
after by the Nuremberg Tribunal. He was a War-criminal.
35.
Finkelstein: No, it’s incorrect, {Mr. Roman.} You don’t know what you’re talking
about. The problem is
you read so much of your own Propaganda, you read the Zionist WikiPedia entries
for everybody that you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.
36.
Roman: You can try to talk over me all you
want, but it doesn’t change the facts.
37.
Finkelstein: Mr.
Roman, I’m sorry.
38.
Roman: It doesn’t change the facts.
39.
Finkelstein: I’m
sorry. Mr. Roman, unlike you, I read books. I don’t read WikiPedia entries for
Zionist Confederation.
40.
Roman: Mr. Finkelstein, I’m glad you know how
to read.
41.
Finkelstein: You
memorised four dates. You memorised four dates.
42.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Gentlemen, please allow me
to get in here, because I’d really like to discuss why this Incitement at this
particular point. No one has answered that question for me yet. So Mouin
Rabbani, why now?
43.
Rabbani: I think it’s quite clear. What
Netanyahu is seeking to do is, once again. Israel has been putting the Holocaust as a
political use since 1930s. [Woody Allen. Noah Baumbach & his fucking cunt
parents of his. Michael Oren. Wolf Blitzer.] What he’s seeking to do now
is to try to make the point that the reason the Palestinians are resisting the
Occupation and the Colonisation of their Land has nothing to do with Israel or
Israeli policy or Israeli Action, but as a result of an innate and pathological
Hatred of the Jews. In other words, it’s disconnected from Reality. Secondly, if
you’re seeking to justify the Murder, the summary Execution, the building of
Settlements and all the rest of it, then what better than to present the
Palestinians as really the ones responsible for the Holocaust, more than even
the Nazis themselves? As you know, the Holocaust is broadly seen as a
uniquely Evil Crime in History. So what can be more effective than to tar the
Palestinians with the brush of the Holocaust, when actually it’s these People
that are responsible.
44.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Let’s bring in Norman, and
see whether that is going to be effective.
45.
Finkelstein: I of course completely agree with
what Mouin just said: That the Nazi Holocaust has become the equivalent of an all-purpose
schmata. Schmata is the yiddish word for
rag. You
use it for any political purpose that might be useful at a particular moment,
however much it disgrace the Memory of the suffering of the Jewish People
during the World War Two, which is completely beside the point. [Fucking
disgusting. Woody Allen. Noah Baumbach & his fucking cunt parents of his.
Michael Oren. Wolf Blitzer.] It’s a schmata. It’s a rag. In
the case of Netanyahu, it’s quite clear to anyone observing from the outside
that he is decomposing. His Looney Toon cartoons at the United Nations, his [priceless]
bug-eyed stare at the United Nations, his attempt to
barge in on the US Congress. The man is
losing it. Few marbles that he has left are obviously rapidly disappearing. On the other hand, he’s surrounded by all these
courtiers, these sycophants, these grabblers, who keep telling him what a genius he
is, how brilliant he is. He’s totally disconnected from Reality. He’s the equivalent of the leader of the North Korea, who goes before
the United Nations and tells them that the North Korea is the Culture capital
of the World. That’s Netanyahu. He has People like Michael Oren, writing
these books, telling the World how brilliant Netanyahu is, what a brilliant
orator he is. Yeah, that’s true, he’s a bilingual lunatic. And then you have People
like Gregg Roman on this programme.
46.
Roman: I’d like to be able to respond to this
diatribe for the last minue and a half, if that’s okay.
47.
Finkelstein: This lunatic, this maniac is
normal.
48.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Let’s have Gregg Roman’s
response.
49.
Roman: Sure, sure. The only [lunatics] and
maniacs that I’ve been able to see is young Palestinian teenagers getting on to
the bus filled with Israeli children and try to stab them to death. This
conversation about Incitement is not about the Prime Minister Netanyahu. What
it is about the roots of Incitement that have been plaguing Palestinian Society
going back 70 years. Whether it was an attempted
involvement of Mufti, trying to bring the Holocaust to the Middle East. [What the
fuck?]
50.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: But allow me, allow me. But
a lot of People are saying the roots here are the Occupation, the Israeli
Occupation.
51.
Roman: Occupation is not the root of the Palestinian Incitement. There
was no State of Israel from which to resist in 1941 when the Mufti met with Hitler. The Ideological heir to the
Symbolism and the Ideology of Resistance, which Palestinians claim it is and
which I’m saying is Terrorism, started many years before the State of Israel
was founded. And the argument is:
Generation after generation that is used by the Palestinian leaders that try to
whip up the Fury and resentment against the Jews who are living rightfully in
their historical homeland of Israel is coming from the same base of Hatred that
is being used today that try to convince the young Palestinians on social Media
and other venues of Incitement to commit these heinous terrorist Attacks. If we
want to end the cycle of Violence, we also have to end the cycle of Incitement
that has been going on for generations. Now, it was interesting to see that we
talked about David Ben-Gurion and also Yitzhak Shamir, both Individuals who
came to accept the fact that they had to negotiate with their Palestinian
partner. Israelis had accepted the Idea of the State of Palestine since
1948 -
52.
Rabbani: Shamir?
53.
Roman: - when UN was able to vote on it. And
what we see now is even Binyamin Netanyahu.
54.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: Mouin, last 15 seconds.
Last 15 seconds, you can have the last few words, Mouin Rabbani.
55.
Roman: Sure.
56.
Rabbani: We’re supposed to believe that Yitzhak Shamir came
to the conclusion that he had to negotiate with the Palestinians? This
is Shamir, who after being ousted from office, his plan was -
57.
Roman: Go to the Madrid Conference, sir. That’s all you
need to do.
58.
Rabbani: - to discontinue the talks
indefinitely.
59.
[omitted]
60.
Dareen A-bug-haid-a: I apologise. We’ve run out
of Time. Thank you very much for joining us. Norman Finkelstein is from New
York. Gregg Roman from Philadelphia. Mouin Rabbani, you’re with us from Ammad.
And thank you for watching us. Always you can leave your comments on our
website, AlJazeera.com. You can also post your views on
Facebook.com/AJInsideStory. You can also tweet us at @AJInsideStory. Thanks for
watching here at ** and
the whole team in **. Goodbye
for now.
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