1.
BLITZER: Let's talk about this and more with two
guests. The Minnesota Republican congresswoman, Michele Bachmann, and the
independent senator from Vermont, Bernie Sanders. Thanks to both of you for
coming in. So, what would do you about this issue of income inequality? It's a
poignant story we just told, we just heard, and the president is going to be
focusing in on this in the state of the union address.
2.
REP. MICHELE BACHMANN, (R) MINNESOTA: Well, I
thought the segment that just ran was excellent. I agreed with Ann. I agreed
with what she was saying because what she's saying is that I've been on
dependency entitlement programs for years. They haven't changed my life. What I
want is a job. And that's what we need. It isn't income inequality, it's income
opportunity. We need growth, we need prosperity, because a job is what she
wants. That's the dignity that she needs and the opportunity for a way out.
3.
BLITZER: She wants an education, too, to help
her get a job. You don't have a problem with that?
4.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I) VERMONT: Do I have a
problem with that? No. I think it's absurd that we probably have the most
dysfunctional early childhood education system in the entire world, that the
cost of college is soaring and I believe that we should learn from many
countries that understand that education is an investment and that every kid in
this country, regardless of income, should have educational opportunity.
5.
BLITZER: What do you want to hear the president
say tomorrow night?
6.
SANDERS: Well, what I want to hear him say is
quite somewhat what the pope has said is that is that at a time when we have
the top one percent in this country owning 38 percent of the financial wealth
and the bottom 60 percent owning 2.3 percent of the wealth, that that is at the
top of the wealth, that that is obscene, that is unacceptable, and that is not
what America is about. In terms of income in the last few years, 95 percent of
all new income generated, Wolf, went to the top one percent. So we need an
economy that works for all of the people and not just millionaires and
billionaires.
7.
BLITZER: Congresswoman?
8.
BACHMANN: Well, we need to grow the middle class
and what the middle class needs are jobs. That's really the problem that the
president has to explain. It's tough to blame President Bush for the current
economic woes. We have five years of Obama policies and what do we have? We
have people who are really suffering because people made more money. If you
look at the median income level, people actually made more money seven years
ago than they're making now. People have every right to be upset. So, what we
need to do is reject these policies of growing entitlements and dependency and
instead embrace policies that will grow jobs for people, because that's the
question.
9.
BLITZER: You want less government --
10.
BACHMANN: President Obama, where is the job?
11.
BLITZER: You want less government, but senator
you want more government?
12.
SANDERS: The congresswoman kind of forgets to
mention is that when Obama became president, we were losing over 700,000 jobs a
month because of the greed and the recklessness and illegal behavior on Wall
Street (ph). Is the economy good today? No, it is not. Is it a heck of a lot
better than when Obama first came? Sure, it is. The real issue that we need
right now is, in fact, how do you create jobs, how do you protect working
families.
13.
Cutting Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid,
abolishing the minimum wage with some of my more conservative friends want to
do is it's not going to help Ann and it's not going to help millions of
workers. We need a real jobs program. We need to rebuild our crumbling
infrastructure, put millions of people back to work. Make states like Minnesota
and Vermont more energy-efficient, so people are --
14.
BLITZER: Where are you going to get the money?
15.
SANDERS: You're going to get the money by asking
the wealthiest people in this country --
16.
BLITZER: More taxes.
17.
SANDERS: Pardon me?
18.
BLITZER: More taxes on the wealthy people.
19.
SANDERS: Yes, my goodness. Given the fact that
one out of four corporations in American doesn't pay a nickel in federal taxes,
given the fact that the wealthy are doing phenomenally well, their tax rates
are much better lower than they were in the days of that old socialist like
(INAUDIBLE). Yes, I do think the wealthy --
20.
BACHMANN: Well, let's talk a little bit about
tax rates. I'm a former federal litigation tax attorney. If there's anything
that's been proven over time, Wolf, it's this. When you lower the tax burden,
that's a cost of doing business, you create more jobs. That's exactly what the
piece that preceded our segment said. This woman, Ann, wants a job. And so, we
have people all across United States who have an ability to start companies.
21.
Single mothers like Ann want to start a
business. We're not talking about mega businesses. We're talking about people
who just want to get in on an economic ladder.
22.
BLITZER: So, basically, what's she's saying,
senator, if you raise taxes on those big corporations, there won't be enough
jobs. They're going to cut back on hiring.
23.
BACHMANN: It's not only that.
24.
(CROSSTALK)
25.
BACHMANN: No. Let me say something. It's not
only that. It's also the fact that government is spending too much. The share
that government has been spending -- the question is, will people like Ann have
money in her pocket to spend or will it be government's big pocket that will be
gulping our money? That's a big problem.
26.
SANDERS: The fact of the matter is that those
countries around the world, which have virtually eliminated childhood poverty
are those countries that have invested heavily in education.
27.
BACHMANN: Now, where is that?
28.
SANDERS: Excuse me.
29.
BACHMANN: Which country has eliminated childhood
poverty?
30.
SANDERS: -- Denmark virtually eliminated. We are
at 22 percent. They are less than five percent. Those countries guarantee
health care to all people as a right -- and you know what, let me finish,
please. And you know what, they spend about 50 percent per capita on health
care than what we do. So, those countries that have strong -- that's not
socialism.
31.
(CROSSTALK)
32.
BACHMANN: -- like Norway, let me add. The reason
why Norway has so much wealth is because they tap into the natural resource
called energy. We could be energy independent in this country. Create millions
of high-paying jobs if we only open up and legalize American energy production.
33.
(CROSSTALK) BACHMANN: It totally matters. We've
got huge natural resources. In fact, we're the number one country in the world
in energy resources and we say no to it.
34.
SANDERS: Yes. But the fact of the matter is --
35.
(CROSSTALK)
36.
BACHMANN: People like Ann could have good, high
paying jobs.
37.
BLITZER: Go ahead, senator.
38.
SANDERS: The fact of the matter is we've had an
energy boom in recent years, but 95 percent of whole new income -- excuse me --
95 percent of all new income went to the top one percent. Now, what I think Ann
was talking about -- excuse me -- I think what Ann was talking about is the
desire for education. My version (ph) is she'll have a whole lot of money.
39.
BACHMANN: She wants a job. Ann wants a job.
40.
SANDERS: I heard her say --
41.
BACHMANN: She wants a job and she wants to be
able to support her family.
42.
SANDERS: I think she also said she needs
education in order to get the job. And if you don't have any money, it's hard
to get education.
43.
(CROSSTALK)
44.
SANDERS: In America, we have the highest --
45.
BACHMANN: -- education, we've got a great
educational system. She needs access to that.
46.
SANDERS: Excuse me.
47.
(CROSSTALK)
48.
SANDERS: In America, you have a college
education system where costs are soaring, where kids leaving school 25, $50,000
in debt, and hundreds and thousands of young people have given up on college.
49.
BACHMANN: And what's an American policy when it
comes to hire education? It's been less but more federal government --
50.
(CROSSTALK)
51.
BACHMANN: You look at the correlation, the
federal government has actually increased the cost of education. So, now,
there's a trillion dollars of debt outstanding from American kids.
52.
SANDERS: You've got it a little bit backwards
and I think the idea that solving the very serious problem of declining middle
class and the growing gap between the wealthy and everybody else is to do what
some of Miss Bachmann's colleagues, perhaps, yourself. You want to cut Social
Security. You want to transform --
53.
BACHMANN: That's absolutely a lie.
54.
(CROSSTALK)
55.
BACHMANN: -- brought out all the time --
56.
(CROSSTALK)
57.
BACHMANN: Well, it's a lie. Let's face is,
Senator Sanders.
58.
(CROSSTALK)
59.
BACHMANN: You shouldn't be lying about what our
position is.
60.
SANDERS: I'm not lying.
61.
BACHMANN: Ask me. Ask me. Do I want to cut
Social Security? No. I'm not cutting Social Security. That is not what I'm
doing.
62.
SANDERS: You support a change --
63.
(CROSSTALK)
64.
SANDERS: Do you support a change CPI?
65.
(CROSSTALK)
66.
SANDERS: You're not answering the question, do
you support a change CPI?
67.
BACHMANN: It is a joke for the Democrat Party to
lie about what our position is.
68.
(CROSSTALK)
69.
SANDERS: I asked you a question. You didn't give
me an answer.
70.
BACHMANN: Well, calm down.
71.
SANDERS: Do you support a change CPI?
72.
BACHMANN: Calm down. The reality is, we want
Ann's life to be better because President Obama has created an economic war on
women so that women are saying, I can't even buy propane to heat my house, and
now, my health insurance premiums have quadrupled because of Obamacare. That's
an economic war on women. We want women --
73.
(CROSSTALK)
74.
BLITZER: On the social security issue, even the
president of the United States has indicated, correct me if I'm wrong, he's
willing to take the position you strongly disagree.
75.
SANDERS: I sure do. And I believe that virtually
every Republican in the United States Congress believes in cutting Social
Security. BACHMANN: That's absolutely a lie.
76.
SANDERS: The Ryan budget --
77.
(CROSSTALK)
78.
SANDERS: The Ryan budget called for the
transformation of Medicare into a voucher program, massive cuts in Medicaid and
many Republicans --
79.
(CROSSTALK)
80.
SANDERS: Can I finish my point? Can I finish my
point?
81.
BACHMANN: But when you say something that isn't true,
I have to correct it. It's not true.
82.
SANDERS: Do you believe in raising minimum wage?
83.
BACHMANN: What I'm saying is --
84.
SANDERS: Do you believe in raising --
85.
BACHMANN: -- economic opportunity. Let me tell
you what happened in Australia. The minimum wage in Australia is $20 an hour.
They're losing the Ford (ph) plant. They're losing the GM plant.
86.
(CROSSTALK)
87.
SANDERS: She doesn't want to talk about that.
88.
BACHMANN: No. I want job growth. I want
opportunity and I want people's wages to go up.
89.
SANDERS: Yes, I know. We all do. But --
90.
(CROSSTALK)
91.
SANDERS: Most republicans, by the way --
92.
(CROSSTALK)
93.
SANDERS: Excuse me.
94.
BACHMANN: People's wages have gone down eight
percent in seven years. Not just stayed the same.
95.
SANDERS: Wolf, may I --
96.
BACHMANN: They've gone down eight percent for
median --
97.
BLITZER: Go ahead. Respond to --
98.
SANDERS: Most Republicans and Ms. Bachmann to
tell us her view believe in abolishing the concept of the minimum wage so that
employers in America can pay workers $3 or $4 an hour. BACHMANN: You know, all
of this is --
99.
BLITZER: I don't know if it's most. I know there
are plenty --
100.
SANDERS: In the Senate, by the way --
101.
BACHMANN: All we've heard are these
broad-brushed generalized statements. What we haven't heard is how one job is
going to be created for Ann. Ann wants a check. Those poor kids sitting in the
kitchen, that woman needs to be able to be able to buy a home, own a car, move
up, help her kids.
102.
SANDERS: We've had the trickle-down economic -
103.
(CROSSTALK)
104.
BACHMANN: Not these economic war on women that
the president has been putting forth for the last five years. It's
embarrassing. It's a shame.
105.
BLITZER: Go ahead, senator.
106.
SANDERS: You know, many of Miss Bachmann's ideas
have already taken place. That was George Bush's tenure which was the worst
economic performance in the private sector in the modern history.
107.
(CROSSTALK)
108.
SANDERS: Excuse me. Excuse me.
109.
BLITZER: One at a time.
110.
SANDERS: We lowered taxes for the rich. And you
know what, under Bush, we lost a whole lot of jobs. Now, the truth of the
matter is --
111.
BACHMANN: We need to is lower taxes on the
ability to be able to create jobs.
112.
(CROSSTALK)
113.
SANDERS: -- in American today pays nothing in
taxes. We're losing about $100 billion --
114.
(CROSSTALK)
115.
BLITZER: Hold on one second. I just want to
clarify. Do you believe that the minimum wage should be increased?
116.
BACHMANN: What I think is that we need to create
jobs and I think we need to look at the example of Australia. You want to talk
about raising the minimum wage --
117.
BLITZER: That's going to be a major issue in the
president's speech tomorrow night. He's going to call on Congress to raise
minimum wage.
118.
(CROSSTALK) BACHMANN: So, do you think it should
be raised to $20 an hour?
119.
BLITZER: I'm just asking if you --
120.
(CROSSTALK)
121.
BACHMANN: No, I don't.
122.
(CROSSTALK)
123.
BACHMANN: And -- but what I do believe...
124.
BLITZER: All right. BACHMANN: But do you believe
that taxes should be cut for the average job creator and the average American?
125.
BLITZER: Well, go ahead...
126.
BACHMANN: I think they should.
127.
BLITZER: -- and answer the question.
128.
SANDERS: I think we need a good tax...
129.
BACHMANN: And I also think the federal
government should restrain its spending.
130.
SANDERS: Excuse me -
131.
BACHMANN: That's where you need austerity.
132.
SANDERS: We have, once again, one out of four
corporations not paying a nickel in federal taxes. They are keeping...
133.
BACHMANN: So they should be paying.
134.
SANDERS: They should be creating jobs. But what
they are doing is they're sit -- putting the money in the Cayman Islands and
they are shutting down factories in the United States and investing in China,
in Mexico, in Vietnam.
135.
So I think what we need...
136.
BACHMANN: So where should the jobs come from,
Bernie?
137.
SANDERS: I think what we need is a demand...
138.
BACHMANN: Should they be...
139.
SANDERS: -- that their corporate -- excuse me.
140.
May I have just one second?
141.
BLITZER: Yes.
142.
BACHMANN: Should... SANDERS: One second?
143.
Just one tiny little second.
144.
BLITZER: Go ahead.
145.
SANDERS: I think what we need to do is tell
corporate America, the time is now to invest not in China, not in Mexico, but
in the United States of America. I (INAUDIBLE)...
146.
BACHMANN: That's why you redesigned...
147.
SANDERS: Excuse me.
148.
BACHMANN: -- our tax policy...
149.
SANDERS: I think we need to rebuild...
150.
BACHMANN: -- and our tax reform...
151.
BLITZER: -- our crumbling...
152.
BACHMANN: -- so that jobs could be started in...
153.
SANDERS: You know, this is...
154.
BACHMANN: We have the highest...
155.
BLITZER: All right...
156.
BACHMANN: -- corporate tax rate...
157.
BLITZER: (INAUDIBLE).
158.
BACHMANN: -- in the world.
159.
SANDERS: No, we do not.
160.
BACHMANN: End of story.
161.
SANDERS: Not in terms of an effective...
162.
BACHMANN: The highest corporate tax rate in the
world.
163.
SANDERS: Nominal but effective.
164.
BACHMANN: You want to know why people are
leaving the United States, investing elsewhere?
165.
Because President Obama has the highest
corporate tax rate in the world.
166.
SANDERS: Well, that happens to be (INAUDIBLE)...
167.
BACHMANN: And that's hurting Ann...
168.
SANDERS: In terms of an effective tax rate...
169.
BACHMANN: -- that's hurting Ann...
170.
SANDERS: -- that is not true.
171.
BACHMANN: -- and that's causing her to not...
172.
BLITZER: This was an excellent...
173.
BACHMANN: -- be able to to get a job.
174.
BLITZER: -- an excellent discussion.
175.
You know what I'd like to do?
176.
I'd like to continue the conversation...
177.
BACHMANN: Absolutely.
178.
BLITZER: -- in the days and weeks to come...
179.
BACHMANN: Yes.
180.
BLITZER: -- because you bring -- you both bring
good arguments to the table. Senator, thanks very much for coming in.
181.
SANDERS: My pleasure.
182.
BLITZER: Congresswoman, thanks to you, as well.
183.
BACHMANN: Thank you.
184.
BLITZER: At least we know you don't want to
raise the (INAUDIBLE) -- cost of living increases on Social Security...
185.
BACHMANN: And Bernie doesn't want to cut the
taxes on corporations so that we can have new jobs created.
186.
(CROSSTALK)
187.
BLITZER: He wants to increase the taxes on those
big corporations...
188.
BACHMANN: He wants to increase taxes. Right.
189.
BLITZER: -- so that they can pay for education
and other infrastructure development and other...
190.
BACHMAN: Well, we're going to have fewer jobs.
191.
BLITZER: So there's a good debate...
192.
BACHMANN: That's Australia's experience.
193.
BLITZER: -- and you both reflect those good
positions. And we'll continue the conversation.
194.
BACHMANN: Thank you.
195.
BLITZER: Thanks to both of you for coming in.
196.
SANDERS: Thank you.
197.
BACHMANN: Thank you.
BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
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